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What makes a rap song outstanding?
What makes an album a masterpiece?
What’s more important—lyrics or production?
There are no right answers, but dammit three rap nerds are gonna try to find them in this podcast.
Original music by Red Walrus.
The Rap Lizards are: Ben, Dion and Gary.
What makes a rap song outstanding?
What makes an album a masterpiece?
What’s more important—lyrics or production?
There are no right answers, but dammit three rap nerds are gonna try to find them in this podcast.
Original music by Red Walrus.
The Rap Lizards are: Ben, Dion and Gary.
Ben 0:17
Alright, so let me do the intro
Dion 0:19
All right. Yep. Yeah, like I said we're recording. Cut it in whenever.
Ben 0:24
Welcome to Oh shit. [laugh]
Dion 0:28
Oh, we got to keep that [laugh]
alrighty and
Ben 0:34
Welcome to Do it Yourself Music Appreciation, a show where three old friends myself Benny and my broseph from other mosephs, Gary and Dion. We sit down chop it up, we, you know, analyze, dissect and appreciate a different album each week. Normally we do our shared love, which is hip hop, but every once in a while it might surprise you with a different genre of music. Keep it interesting.
Gary 1:02
Fiona Apple
Ben 1:03
Yeah, man. This week, we're gonna get into a deep dive of the album. Vaudeville V illain by Victor Vaughn which is a alter ego of the enigmatic amazing MF Doom. And it's good to see you guys.
Gary 1:26
Hell yea
Dion 1:27
Happy Happy New World Saturday.
Ben 1:30
What's that?
Dion 1:32
Happy Happy New World Saturday.
Ben 1:35
Like the new norm,
Dion 1:37
the new norm Yeah, yeah. New Normal baby. Big, big normal, big normals coming for us
Ben 1:41
not even that new anymore. That's why I was like it is what it is.
Ben: 1:44
But yea, had fun with this one. Ummm
Dion 1:49
Yeah, in my like, you know, my deep dive in the lyrics and like listening and all that stuff. Sort of discovered a lot of a lot of things about sort of the character of Victor Vaughn but never really thought about before. Part of that was from a video that Ben shared with us, Ben, how do you find that video? What's up Tell us about that video first of all, and like how'd you find it?
Ben: 2:07
So I think it's important you know, and we should start doing this is that uh, we talked about who were... you know, Victor Vaughn is like a side project for the for the rapper MF Doom and MF Doom is just one of the he's the main character in the show of Daniel Dumile. I looked it up by the way I wasn't sure if it's Daniel do Meel
Dion 2:29
No, it's Dumile. He says it...
Ben 2:33
Confirmed he said he pronounces it on a few different albums. So Daniel Dumile is this incredibly creative artists in hip hop, one of the greatest producers and my and my favorite rapper of all time. Got his start in the early 90s with the with the rap collective KMD more of a rap group than a collective actually with his brothers Sub Fock and another guy named Onyx. They released one album to a degree of success. It was a pretty big album when it was released called Mr. Hood I believe it came out in 91. And it uh, you know, it was in line with the conscious era the Brand Newbians the Jungle Brothers, Tribe Called Quest it was it was of that, that realm it was a little more humor. And you could say that it almost began Doom's process of weaving in vocal tapestries, or you know, doing mixes with with samples of old records trying to tell a story within the album. It started right there from his first album, and, you know, K and D came and went his brother passed away during the end of the recording of their second album, which got shelved. There was some drama there and and Daniel Dumile, who went by the name of Zev Lavex at the time disappeared, after you know, the second album, which eventually was released by KMD called Black bastards got shelved.
Dion 4:07
Great, great album
Ben 4:09
Became an underground classic the bootleg actually before it ever got released. It was bootlegged, and everyone loved it. Um, but uh, you know, he kind of disappeared, and then resurfaced as a mystery. In 97. He started releasing singles without any pictures or any you know, he'd be under the name the moniker MF Doom, which MF can be referred to either metal fingers or metal face. And this is to do exactly and I think a lot of people didn't didn't really know who he was. It took a while for the connection to be made that this was the guy who used to go by Zev Love X from KMD he wore originally a stocking cap over his face, like you know women's stocking.
Gary 4:54
Like a robber?
Ben 4:55
Exactly when he would do freestyles or go to open mics, and eventually he started Wearing a metal mask to block his face and it was a it was a conscious effort to keep his identity hidden and to not, you know, be the face of his music but let his music speak for itself. And he goes into that.
Dion 5:14
Correct me if I'm wrong, but Ben, I didn't get a chance to finish the entire interview I just listened to there's one part that we'll get into later. But correct me wrong, but I think part of his wearing that mask has to do with his brother's death, right? Like, well, I believe he disappeared for a second and then came back with a mask.
Ben 5:28
And he there's an interview on YouTube where he's it's a long interview. We should maybe I don't know I don't know if we could post a link to this or whatever. But it's it's him at the Red Bull studios being interviewed by another DJ about his whole career. And he goes into the meaning and the purpose behind hiding his identity behind the mask. And he says that a lot of it was being discouraged by the nature of where rap was going to be you know, it was all about image and he wanted it to bring it back to no this is my..... pay attention to the music not my face. You know what I mean?
Dion 6:07
And he stayed true to that for 30 years. That's crazy. Yeah, that's crazy. So like even even Busta Rhymes and we we talked about that in a couple episodes ago where as much as we love Busta Rhymes he there was a little bit of a sell out there to look no problem you got to sell like so like making money but doing just never did that, you know, you actually somehow find a way to
Ben 6:24
And for that reason, getting back into it. You know, he came he came onto the scene in 97. No one knew who the hell he was. He and his music spoke for itself. By the time in 1999, his first album, under the name MF Doom was released, which consisted of those original singles plus some more. And it was.... it's called Operation Doomsday to whoever's listening to this, if you haven't heard it, it is a seminal album. In the world of hip hop music, not even underground hip hop music. It is it is one of the most important records in hip hop music.
Gary 7:02
Does that mean that it impregnates a whale.
Ben 7:05
It's a different a different definition of seminal.
Gary 7:08
All right.
Dion 7:10
I mean, you're not wrong. We don't know that it can't impregnate a whale. We don't know.
Ben 7:14
And it... maybe impregnated the minds of impressionable MCs coming up so
Gary 7:19
For sure. Definitely us.
Ben 7:21
You know, at any rate, he changed the world under MF Doom, he became the poster child. And the hero you know, he advertises himself as the villain and he stays true to that. But he is the champion and the hero of backpack rap, of underground rap of rap that's more focused on content, lyricism, and creativity. And it came in when he came onto the scene in 99, and really became well, you know, when that album hit, you know, that was right at the cusp, not the cusp, the zenith of bling, or like the beginning of bling era, you know, you had the Mace and, and Diddy, shiny suit videos, you had, you know, the topic of rap music became so much about what you had, rather than who you're about, you know, what you're about. It wasn't, you know, the mainstream hip hop world became about bling, hoes, you know, you know, and money. That was really if you think about 1999, you still had some great albums being released, obviously, there was there was the the Method Man and Redman of that era, there was, you know, Wu Tang solo projects, were about to get the W by Wu Tang. So there's still raw hip hop out there. But for the most part, it was right when rap was going truly image based, and, and shallow in the mainstream. You know what I mean? Yeah,
Gary 8:56
MF seems to be like, it shows up the idea of like substance over over labels or substance over image I think in every way he does it metaphorically, he does it in his in the content of his music and he does it when he when he actually steps up and talks right as himself, which is really cool.
Ben 9:17
He antithesis to the whole..... to...... he was the answer, in my opinion, underground rap existed, creative rap existed, things that weren't down with the bling era existed. But he to me embodied the antithesis, you know, to what was going on in commercial hip hop at the time. And it says ....
Dion 9:40
Pied Piper.
Ben 9:41
Yeah, it was almost like a like a manifesto, that album operation Doomsday. Just this is how it should be done. No, this is real hip hop, you know what I mean? So at any rate, he became like an underground sensation released, you know, between 1999 and I'd say 2009 when Born Like This the last Doom album came out. He released consistent, incredible, groundbreaking music and some of those albums have become undeniable, Hip Hop classics, Greatest Albums in the in the history of music, not even hip hop. That's who we're dealing with right now. Daniel Dumile, my favorite rapper ever hands down. So I'm sorry that there was a lengthy intro. But when we're talking Victor Vaughn, we're talking about Doom, but Doom is just one of his characters. And Victor von is a side project, but another character he created and as Dion referred to there's an interview where he explains he's got three three entities in his in his, you know, current hip hop, you know, creative mind. That's MF Doom, who's the main show. Victor Vaughn and King Ghidorah. And I love the way he explains it. MF Doom is kind of like the he's more the old head. The one is a little wiser. He sits back, you know, he's the villain still, but he kicks game from a more wise, uh, you know, elder statesman standpoint, where Victor Vaughn is kind of the he explains he's like about 19, he's younger, he's just coming up in the game. And I think it it's so incredible that he like he has the creative, the creative mind to separate two different consciousnesses. It's still a similar rhyme scheme approach, but the content the lyrical content comparatively between Victor Vaughn and MF Doom is very different.
Dion 11:41
And I didn't really realize that until this, deep dive listening to the album. You're absolutely right, the content, the flow, the flow is very similar. You know, you're gonna have that classic MF Doom flow the classic like the like the general over arching style.
Ben 11:54
Quirky approach.
Dion 11:54
Yeah, exactly. But the content is pretty different. And it's, you know.
Ben 11:58
It's from a much more street guttural you know, visceral angry standpoint, right? He's more gangster for lack of a better term on this album. He talks about mugging people
Dion 12:11
More juvenile gangster.
Ben 12:13
Yeah, and and both villains but this is more of a street soldier villain.
Gary 12:18
In terms of chronology, what came first? Did he....was he..... I wonder how how much it reflected his state of mind at the time like did the Doom come before Victor Vaughn or Viktor Vaughn come before Doom?
Ben 12:29
So there's a good question. The chronology goes MF DOOM came onto the scene as his reinvented self, right. He didn't want to be Zev. He didn't want to be connected to KMD. So he came on the scene is MF DOOM. This mysterious character, I think enigmatic is the best way, the best literally the best adjective, you know what I mean? Just a mystery. Like, the man behind the mask. And then, you know, he then he released an album called King Ghidorah, which he explains by the way, King Ghidorah is a three headed godlike alien that Doom wraps for him. I love that. He goes into that in the interview. So when you hear him rap on a King Ghidorah project, or when he mentions King Ghidorah, because he he'll mention Ghidorah on other Doom records. That's King Ghidorah, beaming his information down into doom's brain to you know what I mean? So he speaks through, Doom, that's such a sick, great, like, such a creative.
Gary 13:26
just thinking about like, I'm not a musician. Right. But I have dabbled. And, you know, we're all creative people. And when I think about, you know, the process of creating work, and maybe writer's block and things like that, he bounces around between these things, and there are connected themes, but you can see him focusing on King Ghidorah project. And then he thinks of something like, Oh, this really relates to a thought I had six months ago, you know, in the persona of Doom, right. And he will connect the dots. So you can kind of see how that train of thought might work. Right? Like, I'll take a wild guess here, it's pretty cool. Like, I love that. You could listen to it, you could listen to this, you could be in awe of how good the outcome is, and still kind of guess at what the creative process might be for this guy. It's really it's really great.
Ben 14:17
I agree. Brilliant. So it's Doom, his first Doom album. Then he released a King Ghidorah album, which was really it was more of him on production. He only raps on I think, three songs on that album, and the rest is of his boys, as, you know, the people he was collaborating with at the time, got a lot of features on it. And then came Victor Vaughn, I believe in 2003. So 2000 it was 99 then 2002 was King Ghidorah. And then 2003 I believe Victor Vaughn was released right Dion? Am I right about that? Three is Victor Vaughn. Yeah. 2003 and then just so you understand. I think all of our favorite record is Mm.. Food. I'm not sure but sooner. After this came Mm.. Food in 2004, and Mad Villainy, which is a collaboration with Doom and Madlib, which is considered his, his magnum opus, like most people consider that the pinnacle of his emceeing and a perfect project.
Dion 15:19
Mad Villainy?
Ben 15:20
Yes, yes. Oh, that was 04. Okay. Yeah, yeah, you're right. That came out a year after this and.... interesting
Relatively short amount of time, he put out some of the greatest hip hop projects of all time, like right in a row it
Gary 15:35
Yea, that's quick succession, huh?
Ben 15:37
He is incredibly Uh, what's the word, prolific in this this time and and a million features he was on it, you know, it was the hot ticket feature rapper. And, and producer at this time,
Dion 15:52
kind of still is in a lot of ways. But
Ben 15:54
Now it's more if you manage to get Doom It's a miracle. And yeah, oh my god, you got Doom...
Dion 15:59
It's a gold mine.
Ben 15:59
You know what I mean? Because, you know, and, since this era, I'd say after 2009 when the last Doom album was released, it's almost like he just peeks his head in and goes no, I'm still here, guys, but he hasn't really done. Aside from an amazing full length album with Czarface.
Dion 16:15
I was just about to say cuz like....
Ben 16:19
you know, he hasn't done much since then.
Gary 16:22
What about instrumentals? Like I love the...
Ben 16:24
Special herbs? Special herbs...
Yeah, you know, he was wise enough to release his whole discography of instrumentals, you know, as like an instrumental series because he's one of the greatest hip hop producers ever. His ability to flip, uhhh, and chop up old 80s samples
Dion 16:47
Cartoons....
Ben 16:48
and make art and exactly an old f*cking excuse my language. Fantastic Four cartoons.... just remarkable.
Dion 17:00
So actually, I'll I'll go into that transition there. So Victor Vaughn, it heavily samples Spider Man and particularly like one or two episodes... Cannon of Doom. Cannon Doom is a big one which he also samples a lot in a in a bunch of Mm.. Food songs.
Ben 17:17
On that note, it's incredible that he came up with this character Victor Vaughn, think about it this way, his character Doom is based on Dr. Doom. Right. And Dr. Doom's original name was Victor von Doom.
Yep, that's why whenever you hear them sample the cartoon saying they're saying Victor von Doom, but they cut it off. They do say Victor Von, Victor Von, but you know what I mean, it's like a quick snip, which is so genius.
Dion 17:42
And then of course, the other part of that is Doom, which is also f*cking bril..... It's f*cking brilliant. It really is just levels level.
Ben 17:50
And so so this is the first album Victor Vaughn the first Doom project that consists entirely of no Doom production. Every beat except for the song Saliva, which I believe is a standout song on this track on this album
Dion 18:10
Saliva was RJD2, which I didn't realize until I listened to this album.... RJD2 is great. I did not know that he had anything to do with this album. That's amazing.
Ben 18:16
So good.
Dion 18:17
It's really.....
Ben 18:19
I think that's the best track on the album.
So it's the first Doom project and I when I say Doom right, I refer to Doom as whenever I'm talking Victor or King Ghidorah or you know.... Doom is Daniel Dumile so I just get that out of out, I'll call him do a lot on this record just because he's a human being who you know, I admire the human behind the characters so much. And so this is the first record he did or the first project he did where he is not producing the beats and you could tell it is a distinctly unique and different sound than operation Doomsday, then Mm.. Food and Born Like This, because every track is made so except for the RJD2 track that we're listening to right now. Everything is either produced by Heat Sensor, Max Bill or King Honey. And they're..... they're these they're not very well known producers. They're part of the label that this was released on they all you know that this record was released on and umm they do a great job, but it's a much darker uh, you know, more villainous sounding a soundscape for him to rap over then the one then the beats, he makes beats he makes her more fun. Like you said cartoon samples, and 80s bouncy, you know r&b jazz samples. Whereas this is a much more almost Wu Tang inspired vibe.
Dion 19:57
So.... good. Another great transition. Thank you. Wow alley-oop ummmm. Lickupon......This is a great song. Great, great song. And it's funny because I you know, you seem tracklisting over the years, I guess I never really pay attention. I always thought they were saying liquor porn. Liquor porn. Yeah. But,
um, but yeah, that's that's samples walk on by Isaac Hayes, which was more famously sampled by Wu Tang on I Can't Go to Sleep. Remember that's on The W. And the song itself I mean, I don't know if it's if they're going this this deep but the actual Isaac Hayes song is called Walk on By because it's like his his girl that just broke up with him. And he's basically telling us like, yeah, like you know, you broke my heart if you see me across the street just walk on by don't even come try to console this, just walk on by. But you know, it's kind of depressing, you know, and human and depressing. And if it fits more with the for the I can't go to sleep cuz that's also kind of depressing Wu Tang song kind of like tears. Lickupon doesn't have that same feel. But what he does is he flips that sort of, like sort of sad, you know, Be or Not him, but whatevers producing this one. He produces thi one and takes it and kind of flips it and and makes a little bit more fun. Still has that sort of like sort of dark bill in this field, but
Ben 21:18
That Asian accent he just did is that the I don't know if this is the same song... on one of the songs on this record. He's having an exchange with a guy from a Chinese restaurant. It's not this this song, right?
Dion 21:30
Oh no, no, no, I know. I know what you're talking about
Ben 21:32
Duck sauce, soy sauce. And this ain't no Burger King. So you don't get no toy boss.
Dion 21:37
Yeah, yeah, that's what I think is later on the album. I know what you're talking about.
Ben 21:43
So Gary,
Gary 21:44
Was this a New York. Was this a New York feel that we're listening to?
Dion 21:47
Well, it is. Funny you mentioned that because at the very end, if you guys notice me skip to the like, literally the last few seconds of the song.
Gary 21:56
Clearly I didn't......
Dion 21:56
The f*cking F train. He literally ends the song was just like, uh, you know, I'm not saying he you know, it's rocket science. You know?
Gary 22:06
The beat is a very New York kind of beat. I think Biggie used this...
Ben 22:13
Yes. Similar sample on a Biggie record. I always...... I think on Give Me the Loot.
Dion 22:20
Right. Yes. Give Me the Loot. Doo. Doo doo doo. Yeah, exactly.
Gary 22:24
I'm so glad I caught that before Dion. Amazing.
Ben 22:32
Now, Gary, Gary. I know, like, so you guys know, this is my guy. This is like, in my opinion. I'm someone who could separate the greatest from my favorite. And I'm gonna call him my favorite emcee ever, even though I think there are people who, in terms of rappers, like might take higher on the list of greatest of all time. He's my favorite. He's the one I go back to. He's the one who inspires me the most. My favorite emcee ever. I wanted to know, and I know Deon has heard this a million times. I wanted to know your thoughts. Because you kind of went in..... You went in new on this one. So I wanted to know what you I know you're familiar with Mm.. Food and a few other records of his but yeah,
Gary 23:12
Yea, yea... I'm a basic bitch when it comes to this. And it was interesting to me to listen to this. I've never heard the Victor Vaughn persona or I mean, maybe I did, but didn't notice I'm like, Oh, cool. Doom, right, because I recognize the voice. And I recognize the style in the case. But it was cool. It was cool, too. It was cool to listen to it the first time around, the way I listen to music is I'll bump my head first time around or nod my head, I'll enjoy it. I'll drive to it. And then, you know, on the third listen, I'll get into the lyrics. And especially if there are, I mean, I think that the way that... I'm going to say Doom also, I mean, the way that the lyrics are structured here, and the way that he tends to make music from what I noticed is the thoughts are the cohesive concepts are about two sentences or three sentences long, and there'll be just, you know, it's it's a, it's a, it's a short poem, and it's one thought from start to finish, and maybe there'll be something hilarious in there. But the... I love that the the themes that he chooses to use our themes of, you know, villainy, you know, low level streak, you know, violence and hustling and food, right, like, I love that.
Ben 24:24
Yes! I love that Always harkens back to our boy Rashid. I think it always harkens back to... We know the original guy who wrote a whole album about food he went we went to school. What up Rashid.
Gary 24:38
It made me fall in love with the genre a little bit more right like this to me is the like this guy's work is the backbone of the genre to me right to be able to create music on this theme when everybody else is just using a different theme. The theme is just a vehicle for creating lyrics and rapping over beats and to put out this music and most people use it a different theme, right? There's a generic theme that's out there that, you know, we heard, you know, come into vogue at the end of the, you know, late 90s. And it's still in vogue, right, which is wealth and etc, and violence, but he's doing it from a slightly different angle, like you could... My hypothesis is that he's just like, I love this art form. And this is the theme I'm going to use and it's a theme that I personally find to be you know, to bring out humor and to bring out creativity and shit man, I found it really enjoying the listen to this album. And
Ben 25:31
I was hoping for that man. I'm glad you did.
Gary 25:33
Thank you for this recommendation. For sure experience I'm gonna keep listening to it. I feel like I only scratched the surface just because the way I listen to music man, I get into it slowly.
Ben 25:42
In my opinion, this is the artist that like of all artists the Doom rabbit hole is so easy to fall into because um.. because of like, how I'm an album guy, right? If someone has like a dope single, but the rest of the album sucks, I'm gonna fall out, uh, you know, out of appreciation pretty quick. And his projects are so incredibly listening, listenable to from start to finish. And his lyrics paint such a.... I'm a very visual listener. So if I'm not hearing something that's painting a picture in my head, I probably lose interest after a few listens also, and this album in particular paints such a dark New York City almost like New York City in the 70s you know what I mean? Like, like a different New York that we currently live in.
Gary 26:28
A Bronx is burning kind of thing that we've heard about but haven't experienced...
Dion 26:33
Ben I've been watching The Deuce recently. Gary, I don't know if you if you ever watched that show. It's great. It's David Simon, guy created The Wire. It's very Wire feel to it. But it's a love letter to 70s New York like that. It's called The Deuce because it's 42nd 40 Deuce like it's all around 42nd street Time Square like the gritty like the the hookers the bars the discos the you know the brothels and shit like it's done in a very Wire away. But Ben I, sorry.... Gary What you you were saying? Like it gives you that like sort of New York gritty feel that we had... We had some of that give me remember we started high school in the 90s guys we're f*cking old as shit.
Gary 27:09
Oh, yeah, dude. It's funny. I was reading I was reading the book by Rza, the Tao of Wu. Right. And the unrelated to this but kind of describes that New York a little bit and he describes neighborhoods that I'm like, I know that place, right? He's talking about neighborhoods the you know, if you go to you're not coming back with your sneakers, right? Well, I know that neighborhood!
Ben 27:33
Gary, you grew up in one of those neighborhoods.
Gary 27:36
I looked at you know, after you know, after I got got into the meat of this book, I looked up the neighborhoods that he was talking about and yeah 15 minute bicycle ride from where I where I grew up as a child. Yeah.
Yo man, let me see your bicycle. Let me see your roller skates....
Dion 27:54
Yea, let me borrow your roller skates real quick.
Gary 27:58
I got them on my feet man.
Dion 28:03
I f*cking love New York.
Ben 28:04
So this...... so let me try to form my thoughts before I just start speaking but so..... the reason right I could go really in depth as to why that Doom is my favorite MC of all time. And I'll start by comparing him so for me, rap is just like the rapper. Like a good rapper is like a good guitarist, right? I love guitar music. You guys know that. I love the Grateful Dead because of Jerry Garcia's playing. I love the blues because of what the artists like BB King and Freddie King, the way they express themselves through the phrasing of their music, right? I look at Doom as like an incredible blues guitarist. He's not gonna veer off and do some crazy shreddy fast rap stuff. You know what I mean? Like sometimes the shredded the fast rap choppers can almost be like a heavy metal Yngwie Malmstee like someone who's gonna just shred and you know, you can't even comprehend the the level of difficulty it takes, but it doesn't inspire me exactly. You know what I mean? BB King had the same notes and the same phrasing and the same chord progressions throughout his whole career, but he might he'll make me cry when I listen to it, because it's beautiful. You know what I mean? So Doom has a very, I'd say right around here right around now in his career, 2003 he developed the Doom flow Operation Doomsday was a little more all over the place and more rooted in the 90s then what he became later on in terms of flow and approach, but he started to get a few pockets and by pockets, I mean, where his rhymes land in the four four beat of the song, right? So these awkward... I call them awkward pockets. They work perfectly, but they're not how most people would put the rhymes in, right? It's his own unique musical phrasing.
Gary 29:56
Benny, example.... Come on....
Ben 29:58
Okay. So, the one that always comes to my mind is... he'll on so many of his songs, he'll start the rap a beat after the one. So like it's like halfway through the bar, he'll start the bar so like
Dion 30:18
GMC is a perfect example of this because he does this the entire like... Ben I just to piggyback what you're saying, he does this like he'll inject this kind of style every now they're maybe like four bars. And then swtich to another sound in a lot of songs. In GMC, he does what you're talking about the entire song. And in some of the most complex flow I've ever heard. Like, so I spent yesterday like, I mean, with like, the deep dive whatever, I probably listened to song but five times in a row, just like trying to figure it out. Like I'm trying to put like a math formula to it was like I was what exactly is he going for? I'm like, it seems like he like the beat itself, that one kick with the triangle is like, it like that's it that in itself is like a rhyme right? So like he's taking half a bar is using that taking the other half of that same bar putting lyrics and then putting the next whole bar, I was like Charlie with the f*cking chart in the background, like, figure out the form to this shit. I could not figure it out, it was just some of the most complex flow that I've heard.
Gary 31:16
His voice is a percussive instrument. It's another it's another instrument in the in the song.
Ben 31:22
There's a school of thought in musicianship, right, where again, this is not i'm not talking rap here, but it's the notes you don't play that make your voice yours. Right. It's where you don't choose to play the note that makes the phrasing your own. Right. So Doom is the f*cking king of that shit, right? So the lines that I have, most of my head are from another album. So I'll just like I know them like perfectly. But like, so this is not a it's a very politically incorrect song called Batty Boyz, which is on Born Like This. But just real quick, I'm not even gonna get into what the songs about.....so the beat comes in and then halfway through, you know, it's beat. It's like a leotard fest, how it got started any retards guess? Right? So he starts it halfway through the first measure. And he does that a lot and it serves the song so well, because it gives you a minute to catch up, right? And it's like, I'm gonna, I'm going to drop something, and then I'm going to rhyme the finish that measure and then finish the bar in full. And it adds this breath that, you know, that isn't there. You know, most people that just they find the flow, and they'll rock to the flow, but they really don't consider where not to put it, where he's put so much thought into where not to rhyme. And he does that he plays games with the listener too.
Dion 32:53
It's like playing with negative space with, you know, print artists or, you know, drawing artists to paint.
Ben 32:58
Yep. And another another thing that he does is he plays games with the listener, he wants to keep you surprised. And even though he he'll have you know, he has about four or five of the same rhyme patterns that he keeps going back to. Sometimes he'll surprise you, right with new newer rhyme schemes, but a lot of his patterns his rhymes, where the rhyme lands are going to be the same. One thing he'll also do the play with the listener is he'll say a whole bar and then when he's about to say the thing you're think he's gonna say he's gonna pause. Right, so like, uh,
Dion 33:31
yeah, yeah
Ben 33:34
Again on Born Like This. "She had her five fingers around the head of my". And you think he's about to say dick and then he lets a whole measure go by. And like something happens like in the beat and he goes "Bic, now give me my pen back". You know what I mean? Like, yeah. He likes to he likes to keep you guessing and surprise you and keep you like, oh, man, you know what I mean? So he's
Gary 33:58
When we say born this way, you know.
Ben 34:00
Born like this....
Gary 34:00
Born like this, I think of born this way. And that's Lady Gaga.
Dion 34:03
Lady Gaga [laugh]
Ben 34:06
It's a very underrated Doom Album.
Dion 34:11
It's a great album,
Ben 34:11
The last full length he put out
Gary 34:13
Besides his flow, his voice is just cool, man. It's cool because it's you know, it's not a it's not a very clean sound right?
Dion 34:21
No, not at all...
Gary 34:23
It sounds like and the funny you know, I can't picture his face as he's doing it right now and my
Dion 34:28
No one can. He's wearing a mask all the time...
Ben 34:30
I've always pictured him wearing a metal mask. You know what I mean?
Dion 34:33
But Gary, yeah, you're right though. His voice it's almost like I mean, granted this person not a rapper, but like DJ Premiers voice he..... DJ Premier's got a very very unique just raspy voice you always know like Premier's voice when he speaks up.
Ben 34:46
But on that note, right one thing and on the note of his voice, right, one thing he's super conscious of and one thing he put so much effort into is its help you'll rarely ever hear him rap aggressively. He's never yelling. It's always like the boss. The villain sitting in his throne. Not worried. He's not trying to scare you, right? He's not trying to be like, I am being so aggressive with my voice. No, he's just gonna spit some villainous game in your ear in a very relaxed laid back. Almost like he just smoked a blunt. And, and listen, you know you better listen. You know what I mean?
Gary 35:28
Like if, if I'm right next to him I expect, I expect this breath to smell a little bit like liquor, right or something Iike that....
Ben 35:36
He sounds drunk a lot.
Gary 35:37
He does. He does. And I don't think he I don't know if he actually is or not. Probably not. But like, you know, he talks about it in in a in another album I forget which probably probably the famous one we're talking about. But he has a line he says he's describing describing a girl and he's just like, she's got a sexy voice john like jazzy Joyce. Right. And, and
Ben 35:57
That's from Operation Tuesday.
Gary 35:58
That's right from Doomsday. And you know, when I'm when I'm picturing this, and he talks, he also talks about like, he talks about, you know, somebody having a gap in their teeth and spitting between the gap in their teeth, right? Like, these are all characteristics. I've never seen his face, but like very well, yeah, he married very well might have like gaps in his teeth. He probably spits when he wraps and like, these are the things on my mind, right? Because it is a gritty voice. It's not like a very clean cut, clean shaven kind of voice. I can't imagine that the teeth are perfectly in line and like whatever. It's just grittiness to it. That's I'm sure intentional. And that's awesome. That's very unique. It's very his. And it's not it's just it. If you hear it, you know, you're hearing doom.
Ben 36:44
And interestingly enough, the only time you ever really get to see his adult face is in a Victor Vaughn video, briefly he takes off like, like the shit he comes out from the shadows. Do you see Daniel Dumile face, which you'll never see his face, like ever before or since since the Zev Love X era. And I think, you know, just real quickly getting back to the mask, I think it allows him to walk through the streets, you know, without the mask on. And I don't know, even hip hop heads might not recognize it. You know what I mean? Like, like,
Gary 37:16
Hell yea. You have to be a real Doom masturbator to have seen that video and remember that one appearance and then recognize him on the street. [laugh]
And he's counting on that right? There are many of those people that's cool.
Ben 37:29
I think he doesn't want to be famous. I think he wants his music to speak for itself. And he wants to he I think he loves how highly regarded his music is. But he's not looking to be a celebrity. I love that about him.
Gary 37:41
It goes back to a point he made in that YouTube interview that that we were talking about earlier, right when he was when he was getting started, right. And I guess the interviewer asked him like, Oh, you were part of a crew. You were part of a graffiti crew, right? He's like, graffiti crew. What the hell is a graffiti crew. Right? It's not a graffiti crew, it's just some shit we did. And, you know, it's like, we were like, when we were like, you know, growing up or coming up, like weren't in a skateboard crew or just f*cking, you know, escaped, escaped a bunch of semi villainous shit and got in trouble. And that's just some shit we did. There were no labels. It's just some shit we did. Yeah, for sure.
Dion 38:20
Yeah.
Ben 38:22
So getting back into his like, so we tackled his interesting rhyme schemes, which you could do a two hour seminar on on his on his rhyme schemes.
Dion 38:33
Just to finish up real quick about that with GMC, my last thought about GMC specifically with that, that flow, I ultimately came to realization, it's kind of totally, if you listen to it again, think of it as told like a telegram, right? And each time each time he does that sort of like half bar, you know, beat you know, beat settle before he gets into it, whatever. Each one of those is in itself like a mini not not story. But like if you look at the rest of this album, a lot of his story like almost story and like everything has to do each other.
Ben 39:02
More than his other projects. This is more story than his other projects.
Dion 39:06
Exactly. But on GMC, it is very like, Alright, these two bars are isolated. And then the next two bars have nothing to do with that. And they're actually just showing like his like skill. But there's a few times in GMC, where he doesn't do that pattern. And we just heard part of it, when I played it, where he goes into like six bars of not doing that just going into it. That's its own story, then he does the pause, then he does like two more bars at his own thing. And then you know the pause. So if you think of it if you think of those pauses as telegram like, you know, telegram beeps, you know, like between each line. Listen to it again. That's that's ultimately what I came up with. That's I think what GMC. It took me like, I get like four or five listens of just like what the hell is he doing? Like, what is this genius? What is this? And I think that...
Ben 39:45
I agree, man. I really I love that, that that that way to look at it. Man. I agree with that. And I've heard him. There was another interview a long time. I can't really locate it. But there's another interview where he explains that style of his where he'll do a thought and then a completely another thought that you know, with those pauses and what he said was
Dion 40:05
Oh he does talk about this?
Ben 40:06
He talks about it. Yeah, so I can't, I couldn't find the interview. But I heard him say this once, and I thought it was such a cool way to look at it. He almost looks at is like a conversation with himself. So like, you know, he'll say something, and then, and then the pause, and it'll say, it's like this, you know what I mean? And then even if it doesn't really make sense, even if the conversation isn't about one topic, it's almost like a conversation within his own head, two thought processes bouncing off of each other. And rather than one man's take on something, it's all you know, it's like this, it's like this. This also, you know, what I mean? It's like, a way to separate it away to keep the listener interested, you know, whatever....
Dion 40:46
And keeping relative within itself to. Like, not like, Yeah, he's not just saying like, Oh, this is a bunch of random thoughts. It's like, it kind of is, but here's my exclamation, you know, like, it's like, it makes sense to me. And that's all it really f*cking matters, you know.
Ben 40:56
And you're not gonna get essays from Doom, you're not gonna get songs that have a strong political message, or a moral to them for the most part with Doom. What you're gonna get is, is fractured thoughts, right, you're gonna it's stream of consciousness in my opinion, you know, blunt smoke, stream of consciousness, poetry that happens to be pretty profound when you break it up into separate separate sections. There's another on another album, he has a line that says, "One man's waist is another man's soap. Suns fan base know the brother man's dope", every single word. Every single word of those two sentences rhymes with each other, except for maybe one of the middle words, right? So that's something another thing that that Doom is really admired for is they call it one of the technical terms is internal rhymes, where more than the end of the sentence rhymes with the previous sentence. And his internal rhymes are so symmetrical, right? It's one man's waist. is another man's soap. suns fan base. No, the brother man's dope. Every syllable except for the middle syllable rhymes with each other.
Dion 42:09
So he has he has one of this album that is exactly like that. It actually. I think it ends the album. He was on the last track it's on change the beat I think it's either the last two bars or like towards the end of the song Let me pull up Genius.
Yeah, I got it right here. Okay, pal pay him like PayPal. So we could be a okay not okay corral. So what? Again? Okay, pal pay him like PayPal so we could be okay not okay corral.
Ben 42:36
Okay corral meaning shooting each other up cowboy style. Pay me so you know, and that's, again, getting back into why he's my favorite rapper ever. Right? He will give you a basic thought. But say it in a complicated enough way that you have to be like, wait, okay. Oh, okay, pal. P..., you know, PayPal. So we don't be okay corral. Oh, yeah. You never just gonna hear him say something you're gonna have to, you know, remove a, you know, you're gonna have to like, like, peel back the layers and actually do the math in your head. Yep. And I love that, you know, on another on another album, he'll say, you know, is they rhymers or stripping males? You know, he's talking about, about about rappers that he doesn't like are they rhymers or stripping males out of work jerk since they shut down chip n dales. You know what I mean?
Dion 43:28
I remember that line. It's a great one.
Gary 43:32
It sounds so good. Coming from coming from some guy who is just like spitting out the microphone, right? Like, with his unique voice not trying to sound like anything else who knows how he wants to sound. It's like...
Ben 43:44
He never sacrifices his vision for anything, but you know what I mean? His his approach is I am going to be me till the day I die. I would be shocked. I would I would be so shocked if he ever put out anything that sounded like it was trying to be spun on the radio. It just it's not in him. You know what I mean? A piece of me would die inside if that happened.
Gary 44:12
I would want to hear it. And I mean, chances are, right, there would be something about it. That as Kool Keith would say a little twist.
Dion 44:24
I mean, he does he makes songs that could be like Bomb Thrown. I mean, granted, that's Czarface featuring MF DOOM but that that's something... the song Bomb Thrown could easily be a radio hit.
Ben 44:36
The beat could be on a hit song, but the lyrics from all three of those guys is way too raw and way too inaccessible.
Dion 44:45
It's like It's like when Rza in the Wu Tang show when he was like doing like the rhyme about like the old like you know the the baby being born like through the fallopian tubes like that and the audience didn't get it like yo, you're just not ready for it. You know like....
Ben 44:58
That was sick.
Dion 45:00
So, um, yeah, go ahead.
Ben 45:02
No, I mean, I could literally verbally you know, talk I could I could give this man accolades and and appreciation at length and at nauseum. So I would love to hear your take on it Dion.
Dion 45:18
I actually I want to I want to turn to something a little... again going back to him like you know saying that Victor Vaughn is the younger you know, the youth. Like he is he is the young person himself, whatever. So I went into like, you know, my like lyric, you know, sort of dive with that lens. And he's absolutely right. So there's a there's a few songs Okay, so I want to start with a few examples of things for this album that like you're gonna like from like yo obviously this is him being juvenile to like the last one I'm gonna blow your mind be like, Oh shit, I didn't think of that. So Never Dead the song Bever Dead. Right?
Gary 45:53
Yeah
Ben 45:53
The roach is never dead.
Dion 45:55
I'll play that in the background. Yeah,
Ben 45:56
That's such a great..... How many times have we said that while smoking a joint? You know what I mean?
Dion 46:01
Yep. Yep.
Ben 46:04
It's not dead yet....
Dion 46:04
The song, part of the song is at the end of the day. It's about him as a f*cking high school kid. And his boy steals his donkey kong video game out of his locker. So him and his other boy go and get some like voodoo magic. Put it on the kid's bed so they can turn back time. So you get his video game back the next day. Like you cannot get more juvenile than that. Like that. That's that's a f*cking kid. It's great.
Gary 46:27
That's long concept to express in a typical in a typical MF DOOM song, right? It's like, he doesn't really tell a cohesive tale from start to finish unless he can do it within three sentences. Right? Right.
Ben 46:41
And I think on modern day mugging he also does something very similar. Where he uses a time travel device to mug people. Have you noticed that?
Yeah, cuz he said something about a flux capacitor. He's like,
And he goes, how do I fix this flux capacitor? And he goes circa 1-9-7-1. Like you he names the date and time that he goes back to to rob someone and then go back to the present. I think that's modern day mugging I think....
Dion 47:05
Modern Day Mugging. Which in itself is great. I mean, obviously that reminded me of a wachya call it. He done
It's almost like Give Me the Loot and...... Run that shit. Yeah, exactly. Run That Shit
Gary 47:22
With a super villain twist.
Dion 47:24
Yeah, kinda and now not only is it a super villain twist in this but it also has a double twist at the end. First of all the entire time I don't know if you guys realize but the entire time he's robbing people in that song. He's got a gun with no bullets. So the whole the whole time he's got no bullets he says towards the beginning. This is how you rob people. First of all, you don't need bullets like blah blah. But then by the end what happens it that he tries to rob this old lady because he's she's coming out of a liquor store and he thinks she has a bunch of money. But it turns out she's got the f*cking heater on her too. And shoot him. It's basically, the tail of the story, the moral of the story - Yo, don't don't underestimate some old ladies like they they may be packing heat too. You know, he's like, that shit just just barely missed my camouflage. But that again so again going back to his juvenile... like you know only... only a kid would think to f*cking rob an old lady right? I mean, come on.
Gary 48:14
That's right. That's right. That's right. That's like some despicable shit that you regret when you're older. Right? But you don't know when you're young.
Dion 48:21
Exactly, exactly. Lactose and Lechitin is... the whole thing is about a bad coke deal. Right? And if you if you listen again towards the end of the song, like as the audience member you can clearly see that yo like this is a stupid idea. Like they're gonna rip you off like what are you doing? But he does the deal and it turns out that its mixed in like lactose and lechitin are two things that are cutting agents for coke. And he finds out, he gets like 14 kilos and it's like 90% lactate and...he's like oh shit i gotta go back and look and I got I got to shoot these guys blah, blah, blah... nah, it's like they already ripped you off dude like your f*cking kid. You don't know what you're f*cking talking about.
Ummm, Let Me Watch
Ben 49:03
Great track
Dion 49:06
I didn't realize this, but looking at Genius apparently he has a feature with a female artists in the second half of every album.
Ben 49:14
Every album. Every one of his projects except for his like collabs with.... I think Danger Doom doesn't have one...
Dion 49:23
That make sense. Yeah. Danger Doom doesn't have one.
Ben 49:25
...have a female artist or a singer? Well Doomsday doesn't, but she sings right he has someone singing hooks
Dion 49:34
right right right yeah yeah it's I guess right it Vaudville Villain is this, Let Me Watch Mad Villainy, actually the song Eye. Mm.. Food, Guinnesses. Yeah, that's right there. Is that that female rapper in Guinnesses..
Ben 49:45
Born Like This has.....
Dion 49:47
Still Dope. Yeah. And and then I don't know what's Key to the Kuffs? Actually, I don't know that one.
Ben 49:51
That's the JJ Doom record.
Dion 49:53
That's JJ Doom, right. Okay. 2012 Yeah, went Winter Blues, right. But again, the third example Yeah, that one is like, Yo, this is a kid that you know, he's he's good. He's got this. He's got this chick, like she's ready to go like, yeah, like her parents are gone. And actually, this is another thing that make you like it sort of makes you feel better about about DOOM because, like, at first it seems like you know, it's just like f*cking old ass man creeping,
Gary 50:16
creeping until I learned.....
Dion 50:17
creepy but he realizes... Oh no, he's probably like 16, 17, 18 years old so actually this is fine, but he's got it in the bag and he says that one thing is called her a hoe called.
Ben 50:26
Oh, no, you didn't....
Dion 50:27
No you did exactly. And even after that he's still like his like juvenile is like me Why? Kid brain... He thinks he's still good. He's like, Oh, yeah, I f*cked it up. Maybe I can still watch it go. Can I still watch it? You know..
Ben 50:37
She goes, I'd rather I forgive me for the vulgary. But you know, I'd rather masturbate than f*ck with Vic Vaughn. Yeah, and he goes, "let me watch"
Dion 50:44
Let me watch. And that's the title of the song. So the title of the song is like just showing his, just his youth and his naivity. But the bigger big example, I think is on the song Dead Mouse. The reason is, so it starts off with him being a little bit difficult. And it's him saying he's waiting, like.... let me pull up the lyrics real quick, and I'll show you what I mean. He's almost, he's like, waiting for the beat to drop. He's like, Yo, I don't I don't rhyme until the beats here. Like, you know, don't don't don't talk to me until until the beat here. Right? So starts off for him just like being like, you know, like, just like any young artists that you hear of, it's like, Yo, I'm gonna be a diva. Like, you know, y'all only pay me to ride with it with where the beats at. I'm not I'm not gonna do this artist or whatever. Like, this is what this what you pay me for, right? Like a young whippersnappers.
And then even at the end of the first verse, he stops mill, he stops rapping in the middle of the bar, because the drum cuts out. So he's continuing that juvenile thing, whatever. So basically, ultimately, it comes down to I think the line in the song, which we heard already, because y'all pay for V flowing to the beat. Now I break that down like this. When we talked about this earlier, a lot of what Doom is known for in general for all his rhymes is not rhyming on the beat, right? Like he like an all his tracks, like that's what makes him like sort of unique. So V is like, I feel I feel like it's just him sort of being rebellious. Like any mentor mentee relationship, I mean, Obi Wan and, and and Anakin, same thing, like, just try like trying to go the opposite of what the mentor is doing. So like that's, that's that's like the ultimate thing of what I'm saying about about his like, sort of just like young nature, it's like, Yo, I know Doom is like the older version of me, and this is how he does it, and I know that shit is great. But f*ck that motherf*cker. Like I'm here on my own. I'm sick of... I'm 17 years old, I can do my own thing. Like I aint rapping over this bullshit. I'm only rapping over the drums and I'm rapping my way, you know what I mean? Yeah, that's what that one line y'all pay for V flowing, flowing to the beat, specifically, is like a like a f*ck you to do Doom or Ghidorah or any of the other personalities. Just him being a young ass hole.
Gary 52:43
It means so much more knowing that he released this album, after the famous Doom album. The most famous album, right? Like this is a this is a it's a it's an interesting reflect is he's reflecting right and, and it's very effective, because he has had a lot of experience and success and you know, etc. And, and he's and he's made a lot of characters, right? He decides to go back to something that you know, I think, I mean, without listening to the album sounds like maybe a mundane, maybe less interesting topic, right? Who wants to hear about a juvenile, right? What kind of interesting shit and they get into, right, but it was a really cool reflection. That's the cool part about it. He's reflecting.
Ben 53:23
Yep. And I think that's that in general from a from a much broader perspective on like, his approach to music is A - he does this in a way that it says this sounds authentic, right, this whole album. If this was if this is Victor Vaughn was just one album and MF DOOM didn't exist, people would still be like, Yo, what is this? This is incredible. Right? If this was his only character and you're only released Victor Vaughn albums, we'd still be sweating him. Right?
Dion 53:50
Absolutely
Ben 53:50
So I think like he gets to paint pictures in such broad different strokes on different colors because of this decision to have separate characters and it's not the way you know, we the king of alter egos is Kool Keith he's got like 40.... and and you know, a lot of it is quite frankly, I love Kool Keith, a lot of it is unlistenable. Or like you know, hard to get into and really rock to.
Dion 53:52
You don't have that problem with hime.
Ben 54:21
what?
Dion 54:23
You don't have that problem with Doom.
Ben 54:24
No, Doom has has three states of mind which he raps from. The godlike character that beams down through Doom, the old head villain that is Doom. And the young buck you know who's who's more about, you know, more ignorant, let's put it for lack of a better term, someone who is more about you know, being disruptive and violent. And Victor Vaughn, and and it gives it gives him so many different angles to walk that you can't be like, Oh, this isn't this isn't doom. You know, it's Victor. And I would even go take one further that later on in his in his career. Maybe he's rhyming as Victor on some Doom records when he's getting a little more violent or a little, you know, hostile.
And I think that in hip hop especially right, we there's always this topic of, are they being real, right? Hip hop, for some reason. It's the only genre of music where if someone's talking about violence, for some reason, hip hop's the only one that they have to have actually experienced some form of street life, if they're going to rap about it. It's almost like it's almost like a credential you have to have if you're going to rap about, you know, for lack of a better term - thuggery. Like stuff that that takes place in the street, something that that is violent drug related, right? Like, if you haven't done it, then you're labeled as a fraud. Whereas every other genre of music you have...
You have cowboy songs where they you know, like, like, like country songs where people talk about riding horses and robbing you know, there's a song called Me and My Uncle, The Dead didn't write about the Grateful Dead always sang and it's about a guy and his uncle robbing a card game, you know, but no one goes to the writer of that song, actually rob a card game. You know what I mean? Did they actually peep, you know, stick people up and shoot people? No, but for some reason, hip hop, that identity, right? If you're talking about violence, you had to have lived it.
Gary 56:13
Well, because I got a hypothesis about this, Benny. Finish your point man, I'm sorry.
Ben 56:17
Yeah, no, no, it's okay. So real quick, I think Doom is like, almost like, it's like, Nah, man. It's just like, his, his point in all of this is like, you know, it's just artistic expression. And I'm going to put different faces to the different names and different subject matters to the different names of the of the people I release music, you know, the different monikers, the different alter egos, because it's not about truth. It's about art. You know, what I mean?
Art in itself is your it's like, what you're feeling. You don't you didn't have to experience it, to write about it, and you didn't have to experience it to be labeled authentic.
Gary 56:50
Well, it's escapism, right. Like, and it's, it's it's vicarious experience for people, right? Like, when, when you're listening to something that is totally alien to you, right? as like, you know, you hear suburban kids bumping, you know, Biggie Smalls, right, that kind of thing. Gimme the Loot, right? They never experienced, a lot of people that never experienced, you know, getting robbed robbing somebody or having, you know, needing to, you know, take something in order for sustenance, that kind of shit. But, uh, you know, it helps when it's authentic, right? Because then you're feeling like, Alright, I'm getting the knowledge that I am, that I'm getting from this, the movie that I'm watching in my head, and my only experience of this is somewhat grounded in reality, that helps.
Ben 57:32
Perfect example being Wu Tang, right? Their whole, their whole sonic or lyrical landscape is based on experience. Right? It really is, I'm sure a lot of it is exaggerated. I'm sure a lot of it is made up. But it's based on the very real fact that the majority of them sold drugs in the projects of Staten Island, and dealt with the subject matters they rap about and it feels authentic listening to it, but it doesn't make someone rapping, you know what I mean? Like, I always like to, you know, go ahead, go ahead,
Dion 58:03
I would say I think for like my, like, sort of theory on it, it makes sense to me, because it's like this - hip hop, and I mean, I mean, this is a whole bigger, like some subject matter, but hip hop, and a lot of other things, especially in black culture has been just like, you know, exploited horribly for, you know, by a lot of other groups, and hip hop, you know, as we all know, in the 90s is one of those things, you know, started in the early 90s, and everything like that started getting more more mainstream. So I think, you know, people wanting more like, you know, you want to you to be authentic, it's almost like a, like, "Are you are you real?" Are you just in this, like, you know, make money off of us, like people have been doing like f*cking hundreds of years. You know what I mean? Like, so that that's why I think it is, it's important for a lot of these artists to like, you know, to even even if it's like, it's like sort of secret fake like, like for them to have that backstory like 50 cent getting shot nine times. There's a lot of rumors that like he set that shit up. Like to, to boost his credit. No, seriously, like, there's a lot of people that are like, yo, he didn't get robbed, like, he paid someone to shoot him, you know, a bunch, so that he can have that sort of thing in his in his past. And, like, just the fact that like, you know, someone would even think to want to do that. And I mean, for him, it worked, but like to go to that extreme level, just to be you know, to prove that you're real. Again, I think it just speaks to like, yo, like people are just tired of like outsiders coming and, you know, sort of stealing the shit and like not not being grateful. You know what I mean?
Ben 59:27
For argument's sake would you or to play devil's advocate, would you consider... because I really don't think Doom experienced these things.
Dion 59:35
I don't think he did.
Ben 59:35
on Victor Vaughn's record, would you consider this inauthentic or would you consider it like, you know, like, fake?
Dion 59:42
Oh, no, no, no, no, no. Partially because of, again, it's a character he's playing. But at the same time, I'm also like, I'm not necessarily saying this is what what I think. I just think hip hop is hip hop. I'm just saying like, there's a justification for why people always like, they wanted that real. Like, I get it, why they want it like they just tired of the f*cking fake bullshit.
Ben 1:00:02
I think hip hop music more than anything is like wrestling. You know what I mean? It's a lot. You know what I mean? It's this.
Gary 1:00:07
Hell yea.
Ben 1:00:08
Like I think it's like professional wrestling. And I don't mean it as an insult. I thought you know what I mean? But
Gary 1:00:13
...especially this dude in a mask? totally right.
Ben 1:00:15
I mean, and even beyond that, I think even people who claim to be what they are and hip hop, like, it's okay. You could be an amazing rapper and talk about violent things. If I find out you never robbed someone, I'm still gonna... if you're amazing at rapping and the right stories you're telling are captivating. I'm still gonna love it.
Well, that's you and it's not like, oh, there's a lot of people that aren't like that. They'll find they'll find out and be like, Oh, really? Okay, now I'm not f*cking with that dude no more.
Gary 1:00:41
An epiphany for me was like watching the documentary of how a lot of these genres got started on different coasts, right, the hip hop documentary on Netflix, we're talking about.
Ben 1:00:50
I think it's called hip hop evolution.
Gary 1:00:51
That's right. That's right. And like, what would what what became apparent to me was like, the artists that I love listening to that are rapping about this violence subject matter. were more like, they were the artistic kids in the group that maybe was involved in some of this stuff. But like, they weren't necessarily the violent one. Right? They were like, they were the artistic brilliant kid that was part of that crew, right? That kind of put it in into into a format that people can, you know ingest, right?
Ben 1:01:20
Yeah. Yeah.
Gary 1:01:22
You unlocked something for me when you were talking earlier, I think I think you were saying that, you know, listening to this album, specifically kind of put you right back into Brooklyn hearing the train. And like, it's just it was visceral. And this is what's what makes this album stand apart from other Doom albums for me and I'm a Doom novice. Right? I like I said, I'm a basic bitch. But like, when I listen to when I listen to Mm.. Food, I'm seeing a cartoon in the back of my mind.
Dion 1:01:54
Yea, totally.
Gary 1:01:55
Yeah, it's a cartoon. But this, this was a movie. Right? I'm seeing Brooklyn in the evening. I'm seeing the Brooklyn that maybe I grew up in and before right, it's a
Dion 1:02:07
Warriors Brooklyn.
Ben 1:02:08
Yeahhhhhh.
Gary 1:02:11
Coney Island's like 5200 miles from here. [laugh]
Dion 1:02:19
Yeah, totally agree. Totally f*cking agree.
Ben 1:02:22
This is a powerful album. It really is, and someone like me who does... I'm a very visual listener it like, it pays off to you know, to like close your eyes and listen, you know what I mean? You're gonna get a dark gritty picture in your head you know? So this... Yeah, I think I think we're we've talked plenty about it. Want to do last licks?
Dion 1:02:46
Umm, just a couple of notes on a few track. Mr. Clean it's it's clearly an homage to his brother Sub Rock, which is which is kind of dope so check that out again, if you didn't realize that.
Ben 1:02:58
I did not.
Dion 1:02:59
Yeah, if you really listened to the lyrics like the entire thing start to finish it's just it's it's about him it's just painting a picture of his of his brother. Clearly loved loved the dude.
Change the Beat is probably my favorite, or probably the best, pure hip hop song even though like it's starts off weird with like, the raindrops for half the track..... but that they considered that part......
Ben 1:03:23
It was a secret trick when it was a CD. I believe this was a secret track
Dion 1:03:26
That makes sense because it's called untitled. It says Untitled slash, Change and Beat. And it made me think like, because again, I think this is like, again, the best like, tribute to hip hop on this album. And I think we've, we've encountered at least one of these songs in each of the weeks we've done this so far. Just some of the things about moving forward. Is that something that every I'm not gonna say every hip hop album, but every hip hop album by artists that is considered like, you know, true MC, whatever it is, that's something that everyone has an album, like at least one song dedicated to being like, yeah, just like, this is my like....
Ben 1:04:01
Maybe not every album, but I think all of the artists we love, or at least most of the artists we love, I know NAS has done it several times.
Dion 1:04:07
Yeah, that's what I mean. Yeah...
Ben 1:04:08
He has done it. I know that, you know, if you're a certain caliber, you're probably going to you know , or type of MC you're probably going to end up doing that at some point in your career.
Dion 1:04:17
The Roots do it on each one of their arms. It was just something I thought about, I was like, yeah, because we're doing these deep dives, I realized I get last few weeks, at least one track and all these albums have had like that song that I brought up like, Yo, this is, this is the best pure album, the best pure hip hop song, the album on this week. So just just think about that.
Um, let's see that the title track, it does have a very, it's, it's very good. Um, the beat is, uh, it was funny. I had like a sort of an epiphany. It's like a very 1920s Hollywood kind of like when... with that like, sort of like the, the phonogram I guess sound to it or whatever. And that made me realize like, oh, what does that sound like? Oh, Vaudeville. Right. Vaudeville Villain. This makes sense that's why. Listen to title track again and have that sort of had that that audio lens of it being a sort of like mid 20s 30s Hollywood like with with those, you know, I could picture that like a Humphrey Bogart movie or something like that, you know.
Ben 1:05:13
Yo. just that that first verse.
He references Horshack. Do you know who Horshack is?
Dion 1:05:22
No
Ben 1:05:23
He's he was a character from Welcome Back Kotter of this sitcome in the 70s. He's a Puerto Rican Jew. You know what I mean? And that's why "aye karumba. that's my number. one dry summer as far as I remember."
Dion 1:05:36
Oh, man.....
Ben 1:05:37
And then doing 80 down the Van Wyck on horseback. Dude, he's so creative. And so like, you know what I mean? Like, when he dropped in 99 it was such a breath of fresh air. You know? You don't have to be image based you don't have to talk about how rich you are and how successful you are and how many bitches you bag in order to be a highly regarded rapper. You know?
Dion 1:06:06
Yeah. Matter of fact like especially with the with the like how many girls you get like this literally attractiveness about him striking out horribly. Trying to get with a girl.... it's great, he keeps it real.
Gary 1:06:17
That's relatable man. For me, that was really relatable that took me back to being an overconfident....dickhear, right? With not enough empathy. And, you know, and just making all kinds of just like cringe worthy mistakes. Oh, yeah. People, right, like totally so relatable. Right? When we're younger did that shit all the time? Right?
Ben 1:06:37
Yeah. Many, many regrets.
Gary 1:06:39
You know, this is, you know, this is like... when we're thinking of if I think about Mm.. Food, and I think about hip hop, right, like this is this is not the junk food. This is the this is the shit that keeps you alive.
Ben 1:06:50
This is kayle, yo.
Dion 1:06:51
Yes, that's very well put. That's very well put. I really like that.
Mmmmm.. food baby.
Ben 1:06:57
So real quick to take it out. Like ....
For me this this listening to this album this week, did for me what listening to any Doom project always does, which was it sparked me on my Doom binge, which now I'm gonna have to see through. I usually will put something on, get super psyched on it. And then I have to go back to the first album. Right? Because I'm a very, I have a very obsessive mind and a compulsive listening. So I'll have to now listen to operation Doomsday all the way through chronologically till I get to JJ doing which I usually don't bump. Sorry, I don't love that album. But you know, I always end up doing this when I listen to MF Doom. He's like the dead for me. When I listen to the Grateful Dead one song I have to go and I fall into a rabbit hole. I listen to five shows over the week. And I you know, I'll get obsessed. I get so obsessed with MF Doom, and all of his characters and all of his projects. And I and I get so inspired by him. He's the one you know, I'm, I'm someone who at some one point in my life, I tried to write rhymes, I was never that great at it. Some of them were kind of cool, I guess... we recorded them. But, I think from the perspective of all three of us have tried to write rhymes and I could say that he's one of those times. He's one of those MCs that after you've tried and attempted to write a rhyme that you can appreciate even more like, Oh, my God, like the mastery behind the pen is remarkable. I could never do that in a million years.
At any rate, this this album is a classic. And it's not his most classic, you know, and I really feel I think every one of his albums deserves our full analysis and attention quite frankly, I love his stuff. And yeah, he's my favorite emcee ever. And this album is such a departure from the rest of his cartoonish work, but still so, so, so f*cking good. That's, that's my take on it.
Gary 1:08:56
Yeah, I got to say we didn't if we didn't have an assignment, you know, to listen to Fiona Apple for this week. Then, I would be bumping this for another week or two for sure.
Ben 1:09:05
For sure, man and Dion. You want to take us out and let us know what we're going to be listening to next week?
Dion 1:09:11
Yes. So I think for next week, we're gonna we're gonna switch gears. I mean, the last few weeks, we've done artists that, uh, that all of us have been sort of personal connection with like, we've grown up loving, absolutely loving. You know, it's in our hip hop lexicon for all of us. Kanye is an artist that I've all I've always liked as an artist. I always thought he was he's, you know, incredibly, incredibly talented. He just kind of batshit insane. And he's getting crazier and crazier by the by the day. However, his album Late Registration is one of my favorite albums of all time.
Gary, I know you listened to it a little bit. I bumped it a lot in college. And Ben, I've been trying to get you listened to for about 15 years. So, yeah, that's that. I really, I really think you're gonna like it. Um, I would say I would say go into with an open mind but I don't even think you have to. I think I think it's that good like you just just let just just give it a listen. But that that's that's the album I'm gonna go with. Kanye West, Late Registration which is from I believe 2004 if I'm not mistaken and maybe 0-5.
Gary 1:10:14
It's gonna be a fun week. I'm looking forward to this week.
Ben 1:10:16
Hey - my mind is open and I can't wait to talk about it next week, guys.
Okay, so you've been listening to Do it Yourself Music Appreciation, hope you enjoyed it and we'll see you next time.
